Tackling Toxicity: Transforming Healthcare Culture with Dr. Renee Thompson
[00:00:00] I'm obsessed with Kim Scott's book, Radical Candor. It's all about caring enough about each other to tell each other the truth. Like, I know enough about you that I'm going to be honest with you. You know, sometimes you can come across as condescending or intimidating, and then you give an example and you say, you know, can we talk about this?
[00:00:22] Cause it's impacting whether or not people are willing to communicate with you. Welcome to safe space made simple. A practical podcast that guides clinical leaders and healthcare managers to create trust and support with their teams. I'm your host, Trace Hobson. Join me for weekly interviews, practical tools, and inspiring transformational stories of bringing people together in healthcare.
[00:00:46] Now let's dive in. Hi everybody. Welcome to safe space made simple. My name is Trace Hobson and I'm here with a huge amount of excitement for the interview that I have to share with you today. I had the chance to talk to Dr. Renee Thompson, who is the CEO and founder of the Healthy Workforce Institute, Renee has been in healthcare for many years, and she has taken on the mission to eradicate bullying from healthcare.
[00:01:15] And so she's also, uh, the, the creator of the podcast, the coffee break podcast that you can look up as well. And we have a conversation today that is just. Incredibly helpful for anyone who's working in healthcare in clinical practice in leadership or in organizational development because we talk about how do we actually deal with bullying in practical terms on the ground in teams in organizations and policies and procedures and renee has just a wealth of experience.
[00:01:47] And so much to share. I'm really, really happy that we had her on the podcast because the work that she's doing in the world is incredibly valuable. So without further ado, I'd like to go right to the show. Renee, thank you so much for being with me on the podcast. I'm I've been really excited to have this conversation with you.
[00:02:05] And so I'm curious, first of all, can you just share a little bit about your work, where you come from and how you got into the work that you're doing? Sure. Um, well, I am. Now the CEO and founder of the Healthy Workforce Institute and Trace, we're the only company in the world dedicated to eradicating bullying and instability and health care.
[00:02:27] So we don't go outside of health care. We don't have to. Okay. Well, unfortunately, we're, we're plenty busy right in this space and it really happened. Um, it wasn't something that I aspire to do when I was young that I wanted to grow up and, you know, have my own company, but I've been a nurse for 32 years and I've pretty much done everything you could do as a nurse.
[00:02:51] And I got to the point 12 years ago, and I realized, It didn't matter where I worked or what role I had. I swear there was another group of people who I worked with who made it their mission to make my life difficult. And I thought, you know, working in healthcare is hard enough without your co workers making it harder.
[00:03:11] And I decided in a moment really that enough was enough and I wanted to do something about it. So I quit a great job that I love, uh, to start my own company to really. It started just by raising awareness of workplace bullying and incivility. And from there, it has grown from me to now there are 12 of us on my team.
[00:03:30] Wow. That's incredible. And so what I am curious about is now, if you could say something to the old version of you, that was not like before that decision, what would you tell that person now that, you know, now 12 years later, That might be helpful. Well, I would tell myself a few things. First of all, quitting a really great job.
[00:03:55] I had a corporate position. So it was a nice job. Um, I did love the work, but I, I felt this calling to do something and I, you know, I've always been a risk taker. And I thought, you know, other people do this. Why not me? So I would have told myself, trust your gut. You are doing the right thing because I spent a lot of time and energy like, Oh my gosh, how, how can I quit a job that I'm making good money?
[00:04:19] Uh, and even when, you know, I quit, I was like, maybe I can call and get my job back. I had such anxiety. So I would have told myself. It's okay, you know, taking risks is, is a good thing and I always have, you know, nursing to fall back on and I think I would have enjoyed that initial journey a little bit better if I wasn't so afraid.
[00:04:42] So, I told myself to trust the process, you know, just trust and then I also would have told myself to right from the beginning to think bigger, I really focused originally on nurse to nurse. And it wasn't until I got into this and, you know, maybe it had to happen this way. I don't know. But I realized, wait a minute, it's not just nurses, it's physicians, it's respiratory, it's case management, it's, you know, EDS, it's the administrators, it's everyone.
[00:05:09] So where I started. Speaking nurse to nurse. Now it's the entire interprofessional team and we have an online academy and we do a lot of consulting and, uh, you know, a lot more training. And so I would have told myself, think bigger, think bigger. Thanks for that. So one of the things that we have in Canada that is really clear in the legislation across the country, and especially in British Columbia in the province where I work is, um, uh, bullying, harassment and discrimination legislation and, um, many of the health authorities in B.
[00:05:48] C. and right across the country have respectful workplace teams that are working with them. Um, tirelessly to try and shift the culture many times, they become sort of entrenched in the reactiveness of investigating and trying to mediate and mitigate what's going on. But, um, as somebody who's worked in a department like that, I, I found it really interesting that that is so prevalent today, like bullying, harassment, discrimination, discriminatory harassment, and let's just focus on bullying are rampant.
[00:06:21] It's literally. Systemically happening and like you just mentioned in every facet of practice and also in leadership as well, though. It's not talked about a lot. And so I'm curious, why do you think that we have this going on in our health care systems? The way we do. Before I answer that, I, I, I wanted to recognize, especially to your audience.
[00:06:47] I live in the United States. We don't actually have a legal definition for bullying in the United States. Okay, legal definition for harassment discrimination, but not for bullying. Not yet. Anyway, well, in my world, and I looked at a lot of the studies and you look at bullying and instability in other industries, we see more bullying and instability in the healthcare industry.
[00:07:12] We see it more so than in any other industry, and I always talk about this. 1 of the reasons is that we see more stress. You know, especially when you're caring for patients in a 24 7 shop, or even in a clinic for that matter, but you never know what you're going to get when you walk in the door, the unpredictability of patient care.
[00:07:31] Um, sometimes your stable patient is the 1 who codes on you and the 1 who you've been worried about your whole shift is fine. And then you add a global pandemic into the mix and where everybody else was running out of the burning building as they say. Okay. Health professionals were running in and when people are burned out and they're stressed out, they lash out.
[00:07:52] Right? Who do they lash out to? They lash out to the person standing next to them. And I don't think we've done a really good job as as organization. So, yes, but the system level, we think burnout is a separate thing. And we try to do these activities. Oh, some stress management or some programs that are out there, but studies show that the cause of burnout and turnover is really toxic workplaces.
[00:08:17] And so we're, we're fixing the wrong problem. And unless you have your executives. And your frontline leadership and you, you know, you engage your, uh, your entire team and addressing this. It's like, you know, a vicious cycle that you're constantly. Dealing with disruptive behaviors, you're not dealing with them.
[00:08:43] Well, it's causing turnover. It's causing burnout. So we call it, we have a framework that we use. You have to strengthen your organization. You have to equip your leaders with the skills and tools that they need to address disruptive behaviors. And you have to empower your teams to be part of it. Right. So it can't just be one person in one department dealing with bullying who maybe goes to their manager and does not get the help, might go to HR, they perceive they're not getting help.
[00:09:13] You can't look at it from that perspective. You have to look at it, you know, top down, bottom up, and everything in between. And, you know, for us, sometimes we'll have an organization and I did this in the past, an organization will reach out and say, Hey, can you come and do a four hour workshop on bullying?
[00:09:28] I would go now. I won't because a four hour workshop is not going to solve your bullying problem. It's gotta be more than that. And I think it's the biggest mistake organizations make. They think just a module, they think just a little bit of training that they have is going to solve the problem. It doesn't.
[00:09:48] Yeah, I have that experience as well. One and done meetings don't work. And it's really interesting to watch this because right now I'm doing a literature review for some graduate studies that I'm working on that are looking at, you know, what is the real source of, um, how do we transform distress and how do we do that?
[00:10:07] And my hypothesis relates to systemic team coaching, but what I'm finding in the literature is that there's this idea that's really prevalent in healthcare that. The problem is staff shortages. We just have a staff shortage issue. We have an operational issue. We need to fix that issue. And so when you look at this globally, we have a skilled labor shortage in healthcare all over the world.
[00:10:31] So this is not going away anytime soon. That's reality, but I think that we've missed the core of the problem, which is that it's actually a little bit deeper. It's not about staff shortages, um, by themselves. It's really the culture that we're asking new graduates to step into and, um, people to step into, into a toxic.
[00:10:55] Disfunctional, uh, disrespectful team, and then we're expecting them to stay. It's like ridiculous who wants to work in a team like that? Nobody wants to work in a team like that. So to your point, shifting the culture is really what we need to do. But then I think, okay, so I'm going to be a bit of the devil's advocate here and look at this and go, okay, so how do we actually do that?
[00:11:19] So, especially when we're trapped in this business mentality in healthcare, where we're just about getting tasks done, we're focused on operational things we need to complete and we're missing this big chunk. That if we were to flip it and make that the priority, something could fundamentally change. So how are you talking to the organization at all levels so that you're, you're really bringing them into this and enrolling them into what you're talking about?
[00:11:48] Yeah, great question. Um, this is something, especially with our consulting, we meet with the executive team. So we actually create an executive team and that is interprofessional. We have, um, an executive nurse. We have an executive physician. We have somebody from like, an executive from H. R. Okay. Then you look at a variety of other roles in there who really oversee.
[00:12:14] We actually call them an executive steering committee, but then we really work hip to hip with those frontline leaders and then their teams so that when we say their teams, we're talking about. If you're in an ICU and respiratory goes to your department first, they don't go to their department. Then respiratory's on your team.
[00:12:34] We look at the, the physicians, the providers. If you have apps in your department, they're part of the team too, and we involve them. But you really need, I'm gonna go back to that top down, bottom up, everything in between. But if you really wanna create culture, change it. First of all, it can't just be one more thing on your list of things to do.
[00:12:52] Has to be weaved into everything. It needs to be a strategic priority at the executive level. Um, it needs to be built into your performance reviews and that's a whole other conversation. I think a lot of us are not huge fans of just meeting with your employees once a year, but there needs to be evidence in everything and onboarding, okay, the way we treat each other here matters.
[00:13:18] And there needs to be, um, skill development to learn how to do that. What we have found is that, especially frontline leaders, who are really responsible for their culture, if they're not If they haven't developed the skills that they need to confront disruptive behaviors and hold their people accountable, and also strengthen the relationship that they have with HR, then they do what's comfortable.
[00:13:46] They do nothing. Right, because it's a psychological reality that all humans avoid pain, and it's part of our survival. And if I'm a 23 year old. Or 25 year old new manager, and I have a nurse in my department who's in their late 50s. Who is very clinically competent, but who is nasty. One of the resistor, somebody who gives everybody a hard time.
[00:14:12] You know, when I'm talking about your, you expect me to know how to confront that person. I'm I'm, I'm not going to say anything because I'm going to be so uncomfortable that without learning how to have those conversations, we go to our default and that's you silence as a strategy. Now I will say it's not always the older experience.
[00:14:37] You know, employees, some of these new ones coming in are part of the problem and, you know, right from the beginning, it's like, this is how we treat each other here. So you can nip it in the bud very early on. If when you hire is behaving in a way, that's incredibly disruptive. So it's really. You know, it's all of us, but it has to be weaved into everything that you do.
[00:14:59] Yeah, I love what you're sharing there. I know in the communication training that we do or that I do, just the fundamental skill of being able to ask for what you want and need and set a boundary and have a difficult conversation and also receive a difficult conversation as well. Our skills that are not developed in any kind of curriculum for clinical practice that I've ever seen so far.
[00:15:26] And so if you look at this, like, I don't know how it is in the United States, but in Canada, oftentimes leaders are rising to their leadership level. As a result of really hard work, um, tenacity rate, maybe project management skills and really high clinical competency, but when they get there and they're leading a team or a group and they realize that none of those skills are going to help me to navigate.
[00:15:54] What you're talking about, which is, you know, I have a difficult person on my team or even to develop the kind of relational equity that I need to navigate complexity in this situation. How do I do that? What do I do to create that kind of a culture on my team? So that that's really prevalent in the health care system that I notice in Canada.
[00:16:14] And so I'm curious. What you're doing to help that leader to develop some of those skills and what are the fundamental skills that they need to have? Um, and I made myself a little note here. People consider these the soft skills. Oh, how to communicate more effectively. They're not soft skills. They are essential skills.
[00:16:40] And what we, you know, this was the first, the beginning part of my journey. Um, and doing this work, I quickly realized exactly what you said. They may have been good clinicians. They may be good, um, with the administrative aspect of managing a department, but so many of those leaders were not good at the people skills, the, you know, there's other potential skills.
[00:17:06] And I know when I was a frontline nurse manager, I had no idea how to address these behaviors. And so really quickly early on when we realized that we actually put together, we have an online program. It's our foundational program. It's called eradicating bullying and instability, essential skills for healthcare leaders.
[00:17:25] Okay. And we teach them what bullying is, what it's not, because not everything is bullying. We teach them how it shows up, how to confront it. We teach them how to set behavioral expectations as a team, because we do a lousy job in general with that. We teach. You know, we're we do a really good job with performance expectations, not behavioral expectations, right?
[00:17:49] Each then then also how to hold their employees accountable. And part of that is building a strong partnership with H. R. And we look at these as these are the skills you must, you know, um. Learn and master for you to just even set that foundation in your department of how people treat each other. And it gives you the skills as a leader to say, this is what we're going to tolerate.
[00:18:18] This is what we're not going to tolerate. Right? You know, there, there are those core set of skills that we start with. And then you build upon there. You, you learn. We have another program that's really designed for the interprofessional team. It's how do we develop our assertive communication skills?
[00:18:34] That's being honest and respectful. How do we reduce gossip in this department? Okay, how do we give and receive feedback? People will claim they're being bullied because someone gives them constructive feedback. Number one, they may not be used to that. But number two, sometimes it's the delivery of it, how somebody actually delivers that feedback and how someone receives that feedback.
[00:18:59] So we teach people how to create a culture where giving and receiving feedback is, is the norm. It's just how we do business here. So, you know, you get into all those other. Topics and skills, but you start with your leadership team and teaching them those essential skills. One of the things that pops up for me as you're talking, Renee, is that there's this underlying, um, and you said it before, you know, in healthcare today, the level of stress and distress is really high and there's this, um, idea that we're supposed to just kind of muscle up, carry that all and keep going and keep going and keep going.
[00:19:39] And what I wonder about in those fundamental skills is, um, what do we need to do to be able to self regulate and co regulate in a way that's going to make it even accessible to do some of those things you're talking about? And I, and I also think about like the person who, Is labeling things as bullying or disrespect, but it's really not like their boss is asking them to meet the requirements of their role or a colleague is making a request of them, but they're so amped up that their perception neurobiologically is that they're under threat because of what's being communicated.
[00:20:20] And so what do you have to say about. The kind of environment we need to have to have real, um, regulation of those, those, those triggers and those activations. Um, great question. And this I was going to start answering by really talking about the theme of your podcast and having a safe space, right? You have to make it safe for people to speak up.
[00:20:46] To share those concerns, okay, to, you know, be able to go to their boss and say, this is what I'm seeing. Um, you know, I don't know if this is. Reality or this is my perception That's not happening out there, too And I think a lot of times it's because the leaders show up and they think they have to be perfect that they don't show Any vulnerability and therefore people aren't willing to tell the truth I'm obsessed with kim scott's book radical candor It's all about caring enough about each other To tell each other the truth, like, I have about you that I'm going to be honest with you, you know, sometimes you can come across as condescending or intimidating.
[00:21:32] And then you give an example, and you say, you know, can we talk about this? Because it's impacting whether or not people are willing to communicate with you. But also the 1st thing that we do in any organization before we help them set behavioral expectations before we teach them how to confront before all of that.
[00:21:52] We help them to heighten awareness of disruptive behaviors. It's part of that self reflection because it's easy for people to point the finger and blame everybody else, but it's much harder to turn that finger back towards yourself. We work with them on how do we just engage our teams in conversations about culture?
[00:22:14] And I'll, I'll give you an example. Uh, you may know if you're the manager, that gossip is rampant in your department. It's rampant. But you can't just say, that's it. We're gonna stop gossiping. We're gonna work on gossip because everybody , lemme write an email. Just hang on. Lemme write an email. , yeah, you're gonna email your method.
[00:22:33] Communication. No more gossip, because everybody's gonna say, oh yeah, she gossips. He gossips, they gossip. Nobody's gonna say Guilty. I gossip. Right? By just talking about it. Hey, I, I read this article, or I watched this video. And they talked about gossip and how gossip shows up in, you know, a department and how it affects the team is gossip happening here.
[00:23:00] Where does it happen? How does it happen? Is this something that we want to work on? Even though you might know darn well, gossip is an issue and you might know who the gossipers are. It's not helpful for you to just point the finger at them. But instead, just as you said, you know, I'm curious about, be curious, is this happening here?
[00:23:22] So the more you can talk about behavior, the more you can talk about your culture and what it looks like, and how do they always want to be treated by each other and how do they never want to be treated by each other? The more you can raise that level of awareness, especially self awareness. But I'll tell you what, there are some people.
[00:23:43] Who will never be able to turn the mirror back towards themselves. These are the people that you could show them a video of them huffing and puffing, stomping down the hallway, and they will still deny it. So the majority of people, if you just start raising awareness and start talking about these behaviors, they're going to start catching themselves.
[00:24:05] Gossiping they're going to start catching themselves helping some people and not helping other people And therefore the first step is always to heighten awareness and actually trace that's one That's another reason why we see more Disruptive behaviors in health care and that is we've normalized deviant behaviors.
[00:24:25] Yeah, I say things like that's just the way they are They're a great nurse or a great physician, but just don't get on their bad side. You know, we warn people about certain people You know, team members. Right, right. And you think about the, you think about the cultural, um, implications of statements like, I think you just covered this in your podcast, a coffee break just a while ago.
[00:24:47] I haven't listened to this particular episode yet, but it talks about how, um, nurses eat their young and that's a, that's a phrase that we need to completely transform in healthcare. But it's for me a reflection of what you're saying, which is that that's just health care. This is just, you know, it's just supposed to be this way.
[00:25:06] And I, it makes me wonder what needs to change at the policy and, and procedure level as well. Because To your point about the people that are entrenched, even though you might video camera them, to me, it makes me curious about why does that human being is so entrenched and don't feel safe enough to, to turn the lights on themselves or the finger on themselves and to really look.
[00:25:31] And so it makes me wonder. Um, about the punitive policies that we have in health care, oftentimes in organizations where if, I mean, it's, it's fine. You want to put your hand in the air and admit something, but you're going to get hammered by the policies that say, cause you broke the rule. And so now you're going to be punished.
[00:25:50] It's not very restorative. So it makes me wonder about what you're noticing at that level too, in, in the kind of policies we need to have that are going to serve us at this point in health care. Sure. Um, well, first of all, I do not believe in zero tolerance policies for behavior. Except for things like physical violence.
[00:26:13] Okay, like, you can't have 0 tolerance policies for, like, I roll boss up, you know, nobody would be employed anymore.
[00:26:23] Your point. Yeah, when somebody is being very disruptive. It's pulling that person aside and basically just say, what's going on? Are you okay? I always say you start with a coffee conversation. Hey, I need to talk to you about something. And then you set the expectations you offer the support if it happens again now, maybe that's a little bit of coaching or counseling.
[00:26:47] And then you go down that disciplinary path. If you have to, I, I 100 percent believe. If we would just have an honest and respectful conversation with our, the people who we work with real time or shortly after. Okay. Say, Hey, I'm not sure you realize this, but you know, at the meeting this morning I was really embarrassed.
[00:27:10] You interrupted me when I was speaking and you know, whatever that is. Talk to them instead of complaining about them behind their backs, because reasons that some of the people in healthcare right now who have been there for decades, who are incredibly disruptive. One of the reasons that I've seen that they're still there is because nobody's ever had an honest conversation with them.
[00:27:36] It's okay to act like that. But in my experience though, I've actually found the opposite. An organization will have policies About conduct and somebody blatantly, you know, violates those policies. And that manager is still not allowed to terminate them. Just, and I always say policies are great, but policies don't solve problems.
[00:28:02] People solve problems. So that's right. Policy. And like, oh my God, I'm following and here's the process. And like, well, maybe they need more counseling, maybe more of this. And you know, I talked to these managers every day and it's, it's really hard for them. So I think there's a balance. You need to have strong policies.
[00:28:22] You also need to. Be supportive of those people because I mentioned earlier, we see more stress in health care and especially, you know, now we have, you know, the acuity levels in our, um, hospitals are through the roof. Okay. High acuity, high census, low staffing numbers, they're stressed. So there's got to be that, you know, support that caring I help you.
[00:28:48] And I think we have to give each other grace, you know, grace to each other and grace to ourselves. When you have someone that's a repeated pattern of behaviors and they're creating, uh, you know, a toxic workplace, they, they need to go. Yeah, I, I agree. I think. For me, one of the misconceptions of a safe space is that it's a space where people can hide and it's not.
[00:29:12] It's actually a space where people are called to come forward and be more accountable and responsible for the way they show up and also to have those candid conversations like you're talking about. So that's that's huge. And I also believe in strong policies and performance management. Tactics. Those are important.
[00:29:31] My challenge is I think that they're missing that foundational human piece that you're talking about. And so what are the human policies? What are the human performance management invitations that we can have that are going to serve us now at this time in health here is the question I have a lot of the time.
[00:29:50] I'm curious about What your take is on vulnerability for creating those kinds of spaces as well from a leadership perspective, because one of the things that I think we're noticing is this move from old command and control leadership to something that's more relational and much more, um, Evenly distributed and shared leadership and that requires a new kind of skill set and i was just talking with a colleague of mine from holland that works in health care and we were talking about the same thing where you know.
[00:30:22] Yes we need to have this kind of new leadership approach but it requires courage and vulnerability and as we know bernie browns work. Courage and vulnerability are always linked. They, you can't separate the two. So it has to be real vulnerability for the leader. I'm curious, how does vulnerability show up in the work that you do and what have been some of the invitations of vulnerability as a leadership skill for you?
[00:30:48] Yes, it shows up every day in the work that we do. It's kind of weaved into everything that we do. And I'll give you an example, especially with the consulting that we do. We work with the leader 1st, and then we work with their teams. Okay. So then it's everyone, but we always start with the leadership team.
[00:31:05] And 1 of the things that is critically important, and it's something that we talk to those leaders about right from the beginning. Um, 1st of all, with selection, I won't agree to work with every leader. So when the, you know, executive reaches out and says, hey, we need some help. And we usually go in. We'll work with 3 departments at a time.
[00:31:24] I always say that the ideal leader to work with is 1 who is hungry for this. That their department isn't toxic because if it's truly toxic, they're not ready for me yet. They, they need to do some work first, right? And they have a leader who recognizes that they're part of the, and I'll just say problem because when I have a leader who says, you know what, I'm fine.
[00:31:48] You just need to fix my staff. Like, Oh, okay. This is a problem here. When I was, um, I worked with this one leader, very strong union. Environments and after about 6 months, they have their monthly meetings with the union and they invited me to the call and I have to be honest with you. I think I had a glass of wine set across the room from me.
[00:32:16] So that was going to be my reward when I got because I know it could be tough. Those meetings can be really rough. And I was warned ahead of time trace. We had such a great meeting. They were so interested in the work that we were doing, they phrased the work that we were doing, and here's the The one thing that they said that really, it was a summary of it all.
[00:32:40] The leader was admitting that they were learning too. The leader kept telling the staff, you know, I don't know how to do this or I didn't handle this well. And yes, I've ignored these behaviors before because I didn't know how, but I'm learning this too. And when we would do work together, the leader would go back and say, Oh my gosh, I just learned this.
[00:33:03] And even in the union environment where I swear that there's a, the goal is to keep, you know, the, this huge divide between the employees and the, you know, the leaders, but she was able to decrease that divide by showing that she's 1 of them, right? With learning to, and we, um, another, like, practical example is we have this 1 quiz called.
[00:33:24] What if you're the bully because it can't be everybody else. So it's 15 questions. We give this to our clients. We give this out all the time. And, but we have very clear instructions. The leader is to print, make copies, give it to their staff, do not collect them, I always say, it's just a self reflection.
[00:33:47] If somebody doesn't want to complete it, it's okay, don't force them. What the leader is supposed to say is, I have done this quiz myself. And there are things that I need to work on because that shows that they're not perfect now You don't want to do the opposite. You don't want to fillet yourself open and say i'm terrible at this I'm, awful.
[00:34:11] I can't like you don't want to be so vulnerable Your your team loses confidence in you But you have to come from a place of i'm not perfect. Neither are you i'm I have some things I'm working on and so do you and you know, we're going to work on them together as a team It makes all the difference So you're, what I hear you saying is it's okay to be a human being.
[00:34:36] Oh my gosh. Yeah. Right. Like big newsflash. Right. It's just, it's so interesting. I love the title of the survey. What if I'm the bully? I love that title because I mean, it made me want to ask you like, So what if, what if I am the bully, what are some of the characteristics I might find inside myself that, that does still kind of, you know, make me lean into a command and control style of leadership.
[00:35:05] And I think command and control. By its very nature is a bullying, um, perspective, and in our country, we talk about colonization a lot, and the colonization is the way that our country was put together, and it's really still really rampant in our health care systems, and I think that Um, by its very nature, that hierarchical system can be just a really, uh, a bullying, um, kind of approach to leadership.
[00:35:35] So, what are some of the characteristics I might find in myself that is, are still there if I'm, if I am the bully? Well, and I want to preface this by saying, for a behavior to be considered bullying, there has to be a target, the behavior has to be harmful, and it has to be repeated over time. Okay, so there has to be a target.
[00:35:55] It has to be harmful and it has to be repeated over time. Okay. Yeah. So like these one time incidents, we're not bullying, you know, we're looking for as a pattern of behavior. If I treat everyone in, in, in a very disruptive way versus, Oh, I've targeted you two people. Like there's a difference there. Okay.
[00:36:16] We look at things and in the quiz, you help some people, but you won't help others. Okay. Um, you, uh, the mocking, you might be nice to someone's face and you're mocking them behind their back. Like something like that. I, I consider more incivility, but I get joy out of intimidating somebody and watching them like be nervous.
[00:36:42] Okay. Around, we see that a lot with people who are incredibly experienced. Um, you know, I roll my eyes at people again, eye rolling is really more incivility. We don't really see that as bullying by rolling by itself, but you start taking a look at, you know, clicks that we see in healthcare. You know, where I exclude some people deliberately, or I set somebody up to fail deliberately.
[00:37:10] Some of those can be incredibly harmful. They can be harmful to the patients you serve, you know, for patient outcomes, but they can be harmful personally to a human being. You know, when people feel excluded, the pain center of their brains light up, right? Because painful to feel excluded, you know, in a social setting.
[00:37:32] And it's a work setting. But sometimes you're there 12, 13 hours. It's also a social setting. Yeah. Yeah. I want to make a observation too, that it would be easy for a lot of people, whether you're a leader or staff to say, well, I don't do any of those things. I would like to actually invite everybody that's listening to this to consider whether or not you do them internally, because even if you're doing them internally, You're still showing up with that energy.
[00:38:04] And every nurse group that I talked to every, um, physician group that I talked to, and, and I, I invite them to think, oh, you know, like, can you feel the energy in a room when you walk into it? They're like a hundred percent. Yeah. I, I know when there's been somebody talking about me and I just walked in, or I know when, you know, the talking stops, that there's something going, like I can feel it, right.
[00:38:29] So I, I think. Even even when a manager or leader is internally like sort of character assassinating somebody or complaining about somebody. I think that that that energy is still there. What do you think it is? And it comes out. You know, some people are really good at compartmentalizing, but most humans aren't and it may come out in subtle ways.
[00:38:53] Because just like anything else, you know, what you think, you know, your thoughts actually then result in you taking different actions. So if I'm thinking that there's somebody on my team that I don't like that, um, for, for whatever reason, or it's someone, and it could be because, and I, I might not consciously think this, but I think they may be better than me or smarter than me.
[00:39:19] They're younger than me. They're prettier than me. They're more handsome than me. You know, whatever that is. It shows up in how I treat that person. A hundred percent. Yeah. Nobody's immune to that. No. And you know, Trace, I even catch myself sometimes, let's say on social media and maybe somebody who's maybe not an exact competitor, but.
[00:39:42] Maybe I'm a little jealous because of, you know, how successful they are and they get, maybe they get this award and I see that they get this award. And I think to myself, I'm not going to like it. I'm not going to like that. Okay. I catch myself. What's wrong with me? We all have this, you know, tendencies as human beings.
[00:40:04] I think the key in all of this is, can you recognize when you're going down that path? Like I know myself, I always say this, It is easy to get sucked into the vortex of gossip, of course, sometimes it's, you know, when I'm talking to one neighbor about another neighbor or my sister about my sister in law or brother about my brother, like it's easy to get sucked in and you catch yourself and then just kind of stop.
[00:40:31] And, you know, I like, I love congratulations because I think in general, human beings, we do have this desire to support each other to, you know, you go, girl, you go, God, but sometimes the messiness of our lives kind of get in the way and prevents us from being the good human beings that we really are. And so I just catch yourself.
[00:40:59] Awareness is the antidote. I love what you're saying about this because there, this is not about, it's not about whether or not this is going to happen inside of me. It is. I have the tendencies to, I could be a bully very easily, or I could be somebody who is making a choice to judge or condemn or complain.
[00:41:17] And when those things rise up inside of me. There's an invitation to be aware of those things, to take a deep breath, to slow down a little bit and notice those. And first of all, to accept and love myself in that moment and not condemn myself and also recognize, yeah, that's part of the human journey that I'm on.
[00:41:36] Everybody's on it as well. So we get to be human together. And I love that what you're sharing about that, because then something new opens up and I can begin to make a different kind of choice about the way I show up with that human being. So, yeah, really, really great. Renee, Renee, I, I know our time is precious together and I want to make sure that we hear a little bit about your work and what's, what's really got your, your attention right now.
[00:42:03] What are you working on that you love and you'd like to share with our audience? Yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking. So I mentioned, I think a little bit earlier, um, there are 12 of us on our team. I have, um, 4 other consultants. We do a lot of keynote speaking. That's that's what I'm focusing on right now.
[00:42:21] I, I sort of got away from it because my consulting work had grown so much. So we do really great keynote presentations. We do a lot of, we do training, but the training that we do is not a one and done. And we actually put together a whole year's worth of, you know, step one, you're going to do this step two, you're going to do that.
[00:42:39] Um, we do have an online academy that has a lot of programs for anyone in healthcare who really wants to learn those essential skills. We have the monthly skill development. We have curriculum for G and residency programs and preceptor programs, um, for a lot of programs on our academy site. And then the consulting that we do for, I always say it's for those organizations who, who want to completely transform their culture and they want to do it right the first time.
[00:43:07] So that's what we, but then when people say, well, where do I start? You know, I've written several books. I have one book called do no harm applies to nurses to, um, strategies to bully proof and protect yourself at work. And that's for. If I'm, you know, an employee, I'm on the front line and I'm dealing with coworkers who are treating me poorly.
[00:43:29] That's for you. But then I don't know how many years later. I wrote a book for for leaders and that's called enough eradicate bullying and instability strategy healthcare leader. So, I always recommend starting with 1 of those books or both of those books. And then, you know, trace 12 years. I've been dealing with bad behavior every day.
[00:43:51] I'm listening to a story about somebody being treated poorly. I'm working on, you know, our strategies ourselves. I'm always looking at bad behavior. It's a heavy burden. There are some days I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, I feel like. You know, I have this burden and, you know, you have this negative lens because that's all you deal with.
[00:44:13] So I had to find a way to tip the balance to actually remember that there's goodness out there. And so we have a whole be kind initiative. We have behind buttons and behind packages and note cards. And that's the other thing that we're doing to try to bring goodness back into health care. You got to address your badness, but you got to grow your goodness, remind people to be kind.
[00:44:37] Um, you know, I always say when I'm wearing this be kind button, it reminds me to be kind because I'm not always as kind as I know I should be. And I think somebody's going to have a harder time being mean to me if I'm wearing a big be kind button on my, on my shirt. Oh, that's awesome. I love that, Renee.
[00:44:54] And if somebody wanted to have a coffee with you, what might they do? Yeah, just have them reach out. They go to our website. It's healthy. Thank you, Renee. Workforce institute dot com and there's, um, they can connect with me there. You know, there's week we care at healthy workforce institute dot com. They can also, um, ask to, to connect with me on linkedin.
[00:45:17] I'm on LinkedIn a lot and they can just, you know, connect and message me there. But yeah, you know, our, our goal is to create a world where bullying and incivility are immediately rejected and kindness, professionalism, respect become the new norm. So whatever I can do to help. Any of your listeners do that.
[00:45:34] Be happy to. Yeah. I was kind of thinking about the, the podcast that you just launched not too long ago as well. The coffee break podcast, maybe just share a little bit about that. Yeah. So I love the story of how this came about. Like, why is it always coffee? I used to have a YouTube series called, um, um, coffee in conversations about nurse bullying.
[00:45:56] And I was always sitting there with my cup of coffee. Well, I'm Italian. So I've been drinking coffee since I was three years old. And I remember when I was, um, you know, probably seven or eight years old. I always knew it was going to be a great evening when after dinner, my mom put on a pot of coffee on the stove with a percolator, you know, the old fashioned because that meant either one of my neighbors, my grandmother, or one of her girlfriends was going to come over for a chit chat and they were going to sit in the kitchen and they were going to chat with each other.
[00:46:30] And I remember when I get older. I want to have people over with coffee and a chit chat. So I'm always wanting to, you know, have a cup of coffee and have a chat. And so the podcast really came about when I was transitioning from the YouTube series to, I really wanted to help more leaders because I knew culture change really starts with them.
[00:46:50] So the podcast is where I interview other leaders and we talk about practical strategies to cultivate a healthy work. Amazing, amazing, amazing work. Renee, thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world and for all that you're offering to healthcare to be able to change that culture.
[00:47:08] We'll definitely include the links in the show notes for this show, but just really want to express my gratitude for you being here. It's been wonderful talking to you. Oh, my goodness. Thank you. I feel the same way. I, I feel like you and I could have had coffee all afternoon. I feel like that too. I could have.
[00:47:27] There's so many more questions I have, but maybe another time. Another time. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Trace. Take care. Okay, that wraps our show up. Thank you so much for getting to the end. And please do reach out and connect with Renee on LinkedIn. As she mentioned in the podcast, she is more than happy to connect with anybody and also.
[00:47:47] Thank you so much. Check out the links that we put into the show notes as well, that mentioned some of the resources that Renee has created and also is offering to the world. So thank you again so much for, for listening. If you got anything out of today's podcast, please leave a rating, leave a testimonial on the platform that you're listening on and also share it with others if you would as well.
[00:48:11] Thanks again for listening and take care. Remember when you leave here to be a safe space. Thank you again for getting to the end of this podcast, and if you enjoyed this and you found that there was value in it for you, my invitation is for you to subscribe for future episodes that come out weekly on Tuesdays.
[00:48:32] Thank you again, and I'm looking forward to being with you next time. Now. Remember to be a safe space.
