Navigating Burnout: Heather Greenlees' Leadership Transformation in Healthcare (#011)
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[00:00:00] I'm curious if you could talk to that version of yourself, what would you say to her? Uh, that I'm missing out on, I'm missing out on aspects of my personal life. I'm missing out on time I can't get back with my family. I'm missing out on, uh, times of enjoyment for myself personally. And I'm missing out on giving other people an opportunity to, to give themselves growth and development.
[00:00:28] Welcome to Safe Space Made Simple, a practical podcast that guides clinical leaders and healthcare managers to create trust and support with their teams. I'm your host, Trace Hobson. Join me for weekly interviews, practical tools, and inspiring transformational stories of bringing people together in healthcare.
[00:00:47] Now let's dive in. Hi everybody. Welcome to safe space made simple. I'm really excited to share a conversation that I had with a healthcare manager, Heather Greenlees today, where we talk about a number of [00:01:00] different topics from busyness and burnout to transitioning into a career in healthcare from outside of the sector.
[00:01:07] Heather also shares a beautiful story about what happens when you create a psychologically healthy and safe space on your team. Now, without further ado, let's get right into the show. First of all, Heather, just want to welcome you to the podcast. Really appreciate you being here. And I'd love to start off with just hearing a little bit about how you got into healthcare and what your origin story is with that.
[00:01:31] I actually have 25 years of executive level management, uh, in the hospitality sector, so that's where I spent a majority of my career from age 14, uh, to. I guess mid, late twenties, uh, I had the opportunity, uh, just ironically, somebody reached out to me and I did the jump out of the hospitality sector into healthcare in 2019, which was very foreign to me, but I hoped that [00:02:00] my knowledge of working with guests and large teams could be transferable, those skill sets.
[00:02:07] Uh, I gained a little bit of, uh, experience there, just broadening my, my scope and, and basically my database for, for leadership in healthcare. Uh, and that opened up the, the door to an opportunity with logistics. So you have a really unique perspective and I share that perspective too, because both of us are coming from backgrounds that may not be longstanding healthcare backgrounds.
[00:02:31] I, I started working in healthcare probably about. Six or seven years ago in healthcare leadership and coaching, et cetera. And you started just a few years ago as well. And so you have, we have fresh eyes. We might have some ignorances and naivety in some ways, but we also have fresh eyes to see things.
[00:02:52] And so I'm curious, just in a general way, what kinds of things did you notice when you first got involved in healthcare that [00:03:00] Um, may have surprised you or that you weren't prepared for. I think the database going into an environment where I wasn't aware of processes, I wasn't aware of even just the acronyms, the, the basic, the language, the day to day jargon.
[00:03:15] Exactly. So learning that, orientating myself within a facility of, you have to get lost to get found. So try that aspect of it a little bit. And then really coming to the understanding of how transferable my training and my skillset actually was. The caring of my teams, the anticipation of a guest's needs.
[00:03:39] With respect to hotel rooms, a wedding, catering, all of that really is the same general sense of care, and it's the needs of others, and those skill sets and leadership are 100 percent transferable. And I think the emotional piece that comes with it as well, of the [00:04:00] emotional attachment and the personal piece, um, is transferable and has really been a guiding light for my growth and development in my position and in the healthcare setting.
[00:04:09] And what are you loving about your career today? I love the diversity of staff that work in healthcare. I love the constant. Pulse of data of learning and growth and development advancement is we're not held back. We're actually encouraged to move forward. I love the challenge every day, the successes, working through the challenges and the understanding of the full team environment and that everybody's.
[00:04:38] position is dependent on each other to establish the full cycle and the journey of patient care. So whether you're a housekeeper, doing floor care, that's the perception of how our facilities look. You're a surgeon, you're frontline in the emergency, you're admin, all of those positions are needed and we're all part of the one big [00:05:00] wheel, I call it.
[00:05:01] Yeah, it's such a great way to look at it too, for those that may not normally see the impact of their work on the frontline or point of care, a janitor or somebody who's moving a patient. To remember, yeah, you're actually part of the continuum of care for this human being as well. Just as important in the whole wheel like you're talking about.
[00:05:23] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, as you look at what you're experiencing and the volume and everything that's going on, what are you finding that are some of the challenges that you're noticing that you are working with? You'd think it would be the volume. It's not, we thrive on that. You like the action I can tell.
[00:05:43] There's the peaks and valleys. Yeah, I do appreciate the little bit of downtime that you do have. But for me, I think the biggest challenge would be encountering individuals that don't enjoy what they're doing. The extension of care is not only to patients, it is [00:06:00] to the visitors and it's to each other as employees.
[00:06:04] And care is to be extended in a genuine nature, and it's not something that you should be forced to do. The perception of that, uh, becomes a very negative impact. On those that are working within the same environment and the same challenges, it becomes very challenging when you encounter those that really clearly don't want to be there.
[00:06:26] And I think we all have that, that the power of change and realizing that we're not happy and making the change into finding the niche, the area that we thrive in, that makes us happy to extend that level of care and in whatever form it may be. It's not necessarily always frontline, maybe it's more back of house, maybe it's not in health care at all, but it's also being happy as individuals and that's that work life balance.
[00:06:52] Of if you're happy outside of work and you're maintaining your health and your wellness and whether that's with your dog or your [00:07:00] love relationship or your time at the gym, we come and we're happy spirited, then that will shine through in the work that, that we bring in and it shows that we're extending in a genuine form and that, that to me is what's most important and creates the challenge.
[00:07:14] Yeah, I think you're touching on something that I think about a lot in, um, my career in healthcare. And that is that not everybody feels intrinsically safe. And what I mean by that is that there's different ways that the stress of life or work can come out. And sometimes it can be, it can come out in reactive ways.
[00:07:39] It can come out in ways that are more resistant or reclusive. Or even sometimes retaliatory, but they're all just indications that somebody in front of me is not feeling safe. And I've been that person. I remember back to when I was an executive leader that was incredibly reactive and [00:08:00] getting a lot of things done, but also steamrolling people at times and really having.
[00:08:05] Conversations with people that were that I look back on and I'm not proud of and I think that a lot of the time I was very unaware that I had a lot of anxiety going on inside of me and I also was dealing with a real undiagnosed post traumatic stress disorder that was not something I was willing at that point to take responsibility for to be aware of.
[00:08:30] So I wonder about in our healthcare system sometimes. It seems so stressful. There's so much going on. There's a sense of systemic distress and stress and even unaddressed trauma at times that triggers in people. I think that if I had gone into health care 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been ready for it because it would have just triggered all of the different things inside of me that I wasn't maybe prepared to deal with.
[00:08:57] So I wonder about how that might [00:09:00] be a factor to you. And I, I think that one thing that healthcare is blessed with is we have a blanket of support. There's so many different resources available to our teams, to leadership, where we have resources of reaching out for help, resources for trauma, uh, where, however that may fall, but it's up to us as individuals to actually seek that.
[00:09:22] So if there's hands that are reached out to you, you do have to take the step to take it. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I think one of the things I think about now in my career is how can we create spaces that feel safe enough for people to take the risk, and it does feel like a risk at times, to reach out to the hand that's reaching to them.
[00:09:42] And take that risk of going, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to take a step. I'll try it because I think there's been so many times again in my own life and my career where I wasn't reaching back to the hand that was being extended to me either, because I didn't really believe that it was safe to do that.
[00:09:57] And so I wonder what [00:10:00] kind of spaces we can create where people will take that responsible step that does feel really risky sometimes. I think to me, a safe space is, is one of trust and cooperation. It's the circle of safety, uh, for our teams, um, and leaders, we set the tone for that. It, it opens up the ability for collaboration, working together.
[00:10:24] I love my job. I love what I do and my teams know that. And focusing on being accountable to what my responsibilities are as their leader and acknowledging their accomplishments, their contributions, and allowing your, you get your feedback from your introverts, but creating that safety to hear from your extroverts as well, I think is really important.
[00:10:48] Vic General actually just did a rollout of a mock court code orange a couple of weeks ago, and that's the code for a mass casualty. And it was [00:11:00] really interesting because it was all different parts of the site all contributing to this big mock exercise. That had to go on the side of actually day to day operations still resuming.
[00:11:12] And those that participated, it was everybody right down to our provincial partners with actors coming in and that type of thing to roll out a code orange and how are we going to perform and creating that platform of trust and cooperation of focusing on not what we do wrong. What you're doing wrong, focus on what we're doing right, and as a group, uh, focusing on what the gaps were, and working on, okay, how can we improve this, and what is needed when this actually does roll out.
[00:11:44] So I think that created an incredible platform for people just to be natural and to just naturally go through the flow of what was happening at the time and not be worried about doing something wrong. And that creates a huge safety for people to just [00:12:00] be themselves and to contribute the best way they know how.
[00:12:03] Yeah, I appreciate what you're sharing about creating trust and safety with your team and that circle of trust or circle, what did you call it? A safety circle, a circle of safety, circle of safety. Love it. Okay. So I also appreciate what you're sharing about your responsibility to be the leader that sets the tone for that.
[00:12:23] And so I wonder what are some of the things that you're doing with your team to create that environment of trust and to set that tone? Uh, um, approachability, uh, presence, uh, leadership, presence is, is huge. Um, a lot of times, uh, you throw out surveys and things like that. And, and your staff don't necessarily know what your roles and responsibilities are, um, and who their leaders are and what they do.
[00:12:51] It's a title. So I think the presence of actually working through the workflows with them, being in the environment with them, check [00:13:00] ins, daily huddles. That's team empowerment and allowing your staff to have a voice, actioning, follow through, all of those types of things are easy to say, but whether or not you're actually following through with them.
[00:13:13] Yeah, you got to do it. You got to actually do it. I'm going to play the devil's advocate here because I could hear a couple of voices in my mind that have said things to me about, because I believe what you're saying and I've suggested that and what I get back as a complaint about that is I would love to do that too.
[00:13:30] If I had the time. I would do that, but you don't understand the kind of pressure I'm under and the large head count that I've got. And so I can't possibly engage on that level and go and develop those kinds of relationships. I just don't have the time to do that. It's funny you say that because I was actually just in a leadership, a very large leadership group meeting a couple of weeks ago.
[00:13:55] And this question actually came up. How do you expect me to do self [00:14:00] development? I, I'm too busy. How do you expect me to be on the floor with my team? I'm too busy. And I actually heard a piece of information. I thought the answer to that, it was brilliant. I don't want to hear busy. Busy is not a word that we should be using.
[00:14:15] Um, busy, you're not actually being productive. You're busy, you're busy doing what? It looked, uh, there was a story that was given about this gentleman coming into work all dressed up, very high titled, with a briefcase, and coming and going from the workplace. And he looked very busy, um, and everybody thought he was very busy, but when he opened up his briefcase, there was an apple in it.
[00:14:38] So busy is a perception. It's not actually something that I think that we keep telling ourselves that we're too busy. I think that we have to make the time. The people, our people, are what is worth our time and efforts. Everything else, the word busy, it's not a word that really should be used. So I feel like I, [00:15:00] I want to play a bit more the devil's advocate there, because I think when I think about some of the clinical health care managers that I've worked with in the past, they would say they're busy as well, and they're doing work into the weekends and at night, they're, they're trying to keep up to a large task list of things that they've got to get done.
[00:15:21] And What I've noticed is that to your point, there is a shift that's being asked for in their mindset with that, but it's not so much that they're not busy because they are there. There's just so much that people are trying to get accomplished in one day, but the shift is. Got to go somewhere else. And I wonder about the level of safety that manager and that leader oftentimes feels that intrinsic safety, do they actually feel safe enough to say, I can't do that or to say to their boss, I [00:16:00] can't do this project off the side of my desk, I don't think so.
[00:16:04] I think that a lot of the time people are afraid of the perception. Of them being weak or them not being competent. So they constantly say yes. And they constantly try to get more done. And I think that there's that going on too. And so I wonder about what your thoughts are there too. Workload is, is, uh, a very prevalent word these days.
[00:16:30] Some workloads are, are definitely, um, heavier than others, but at the end of the day, we're in a 24 hour. Operation 24 seven, so we're never going to finish everything in a day. We always have tomorrow. So I think the power of delegation, empowering the team on the strengths around us to work collaboratively, to conquer the day, we all can't get everything done ourselves.
[00:16:57] It's just not realistic, [00:17:00] so we have to feel safe with going, I'll pick this up tomorrow and managing our priorities, and I've learned along the way the power of delegation, I, wherever that mindset came of, if you want it done, do it yourself. It's, it does not do you justice, it burns you out. Yeah. So micromanagement is probably not going to help you out in a healthcare leadership role, even though there's a sense of fear, I think, with letting go of tasks to your team that probably they're not going to do as well as you could do, or they're going to do it differently than you would do, or they're going to make mistakes.
[00:17:38] Because I know that leaders are afraid. Oh, now I'm going to get, I'm going to be solving problems. I'm going to be so. I'm curious, what is it that you're doing inside yourself to make that okay? Because your mindset shift from the to do list being the to do list never ends, right? That's the tyranny of the to do list is that it never [00:18:00] empties completely, even though we think it will.
[00:18:02] If I keep working on it hard enough, it's going to empty. It actually will never empty. And at some point you go, yeah, I'm done. I'm going to move on to home or I'm going to move on. So what has helped you to give yourself permission to do that? Burnout. I, I worked in, I basically as general manager of a very large service, uh, hotel property and wedding venue.
[00:18:26] I was working from six in the morning till three and three in the morning, all the way around. I didn't take a day off for 10 years. And I had this mindset that I always had to be there. I always had to be supervising. I always had to have my hand in, in everything. And I lacked the trust. I lacked seeing the rising star in my team that wanted those extra responsibilities and had the time to do them.
[00:18:52] So it actually had to come to a crash where I had to let go. And knowing that the operation is going to go on [00:19:00] without me there. So you don't know that. You don't think that until you actually leave the operation because you burn out or you get sick or whatever, and then you realize, oh, wow, they're still functioning without me.
[00:19:12] I trust my teams. I trust their skill sets. I do not micromanage a single person on my, in my portfolio. I, now you do, but I'm curious before you were the burnt out, before you went through burnout. What was like, if you could say some things to the old version of you that was wearing that workload, like a badge of honor and continuing to do that stuff over and over again until finally, even when you said it, I didn't take a day off for 10 years.
[00:19:41] Like I used to say things like that too. And it was like a badge of honor that I wore. It was like, you know what? You guys don't know how to work. I'll show you how to work. And then I also got sick too. So I'm curious if you could talk to that version of yourself. But year five, rather than a year 10, [00:20:00] what would you say to her?
[00:20:02] Uh, that I'm missing out on, I'm missing out on aspects of my personal life. I'm missing out on time. I can't get back with my family. I'm missing out on, uh, times of enjoyment for myself personally. And I'm missing out on giving other people an opportunity to, to give themselves growth and development. Uh, I love that.
[00:20:25] What you're saying about that, because. I'm curious, once you went through all of that, now that you're giving people opportunity for growth and development and you're nurturing that leader on your team that may not even recognize it in themselves, what is that allowing for you when you do that? Uh, he, I think it's watching somebody blossom.
[00:20:47] There's nothing better than that. I know it feels really good. And I think that's probably one of the most empowering situations in leadership is being able to really see somebody advance. And that's something that [00:21:00] we've opened up very recently within our huddles is allowing potential leaders to step forth and expressions of interest.
[00:21:07] And do you want to learn more? Do you want to be more? Do you want courses, we'll support you in your growth and not holding anybody back, really encouraging them, even if it means leaving us, encouraging them to move on and to support them to do that. It doesn't matter where your, you feel your strengths may lack, skills can be built, you can learn, anybody can learn something.
[00:21:33] And you can learn to be a leader, whether or not you're a good one or not, you're effective or not. But I think it's really embracing our teams as a whole and thinking about things is not me centric and really looking at things more, more broad. And I think it's, I'm going to grow along the way if I'm helping the growth and development of my team.
[00:21:54] Yeah, that's, that's a great way to look at it. One of the things we're trying to answer with this podcast, and the [00:22:00] reason why it exists, is that we're answering the question, is it possible to create a safe space in the middle of really busy cultures and really chaotic cultures? And what happens when we do?
[00:22:13] And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on creating that kind of a space. I think you've shared some of them. And what have you noticed happens when you create that kind of space? Do you have any stories that you could share of that kind of experience? I think probably a highlight for me is just really my focus on hiring a really diverse team, whether that be cultural, life experience, age, gender, and learning disability, in particular, I hired an individual that has autism.
[00:22:46] And that decision came with enormous hesitancy from my team, I guess, maybe perception of, uh, lack of capacity to learn, uh, potential for, uh, his own personal safety [00:23:00] within, uh, a really high paced, uh, Uh, healthcare environment, and I think that there are, there also comes the sort of workplace or hiring biases for individuals of maybe not being the perfect fit, the perfect hire, the perfect resume, there is no perfect hire, there is no perfect resume, and bringing somebody on that did take a little bit of extra effort for training, but it increased the team as a whole to be more compassionate, and it increased the team as a whole to be more compassionate, Be more patient and to take the time to allow somebody to learn in an environment that he really wanted, he really wanted this position and to watch that, that whole dynamic blossom to the point where now he is absolutely loved and cherished on our team.
[00:23:48] His extension to patient care at my site is out. It's incredible. He's absolutely incredible. Not a single problem from an HR standpoint, a management [00:24:00] standpoint. Um, he's probably one of the easiest people to deal with. And I also saw growth and development in his, in him, himself personally, where he really wanted to fit in.
[00:24:11] And I was watching this sort of him wanting to fit in with his peers and the, the lunchroom conversation, the day to day dialogue, the emotional expression, and trying to adapt in that respect, because he'd adapted to the workflow and the learning, because it's in the vault, it's there. And he actually went outside of work and took acting lessons.
[00:24:33] Oh, wow. And he developed this skillset outside of work and really focused his time and attention to that. And then he started to come into work with. Different dialogue, different emotional style of how he was expressing himself. And it was, it was magical to see that take place. So not only did it really empower the team to understand that we can change those sort of those [00:25:00] workplace, cultural lack of inclusion.
[00:25:02] We can really, we can change that. It's very easy, but it does take a little bit. Of extra time, a little bit of extra effort, but the quality that these, this type of individual brought is something we truly would have missed out on if we didn't bring him in. That's a pretty special story to tell. Yeah, I love that story.
[00:25:22] Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing it. I'm curious about what the impact has been now that the team has gone through the whole process of receiving that person. And there was maybe some hesitancy or some apprehension at the beginning. Now, how are they with him? He's just like any other Porter. He's strong.
[00:25:40] He does his job. He's reliable and and he's included. It's no different. Yeah, what a great story. Now, as you look at where you've come from in your career and now that you've been in health care. What are some things that you would share that you feel are really important [00:26:00] for anybody else that might be looking at health care as a career option that maybe they want to come into leadership or management?
[00:26:07] What kinds of things would you tell them from the perspective you have now? You can jump into health care and even into a leadership role without any previous background. And I think that may be a stumbling block for a lot of people where they're like, I don't have the training or I didn't get a nursing degree or there are so many different jobs within the umbrella.
[00:26:28] That are available to those that want to just get their foot in the door. And then the opportunity for learning within is, it's, it's endless. So I think that not to hold back and try and keep within what is your sector of training and understand that specifically in leadership, those skill sets are transferable to.
[00:26:49] Almost every industry, I think it really doesn't matter where you're going, but the main thing is that you're going to where you're going to be happy and where you can collectively contribute to the [00:27:00] organization as a whole in a positive manner, especially in health care, the that's what it is. It's health care and it's a rooting, it has to have its roots in genuine care and that needs to be extended to everybody, not just to patients.
[00:27:14] Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that, and thank you for spending your time and sharing with us today. It's been awesome to meet you and to listen to your story. Thank you. I appreciate it a lot, . Yeah. Thank you so much for listening to our show today, and I know that Heather would love it if you wanted to reach out to her and just share how this show was for you.
[00:27:34] You can do that on LinkedIn through the link that I've put into the show notes. Thank you again for being a part of our community and remember. To be a safe space. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. I appreciate you as an expression of my gratitude and appreciation for the work that you're doing.
[00:27:53] I've created a downloadable resource for you. That is a safe space checklist. This is a checklist that you can use that [00:28:00] will give you an immediate win by increasing your awareness of where you and your team are at right now, when it comes to creating a safe space to receive your safe space checklist, simply click on the Click the link in the show notes of this episode.
[00:28:16] I hope you have a wonderful day and remember to be a safe space for yourself, the people around you, and for your life.
